Who the teacher is as a person matters, says Dr William DeJean, because teachers’ histories & identities shape their pedagogical practices. He’s the CEO and founder of Unleash Learning, an educational consultancy based in Sydney that works across Australia. It helps school leaders and businesses make a cultural shift across their organisations so that learning sticks.
Here’s a lightly edited transcript of my interview with Dr DeJean on the Out-of-Field Teaching Toolkit podcast. Use that link if you’d prefer to hear the interview instead. And be sure to subscribe to hear more great interviews about out-of-field teaching from teachers, policymakers, subject associations, researchers, educational consultants, edtech entrepreneurs and more.
Host: Welcome Dr William DeJean, who is originally from California. So, he’ll be able to give us some insight into what happens there in the out-of-field space. But that’s not actually the strongest lens for the story. We’re looking at the work that William does. So will tell us a bit about yourself and the work you currently do in Australia.
William: Thanks. So, I’m the founder and CEO of Unleash Learning. What we do is work with schools and businesses to unleash their team’s teaching potential to make learning stick for everyone. So, in the school space, we put a system that’s schoolwide to help make learning stick for everyone. We work with the leaders, the new teachers, experienced teachers, and with businesses; we work with the professional learning teams, whoever does the training, the presenting, and the staff development work. It’s like a three-year process to really get it down. You don’t just come in and do a workshop and then go. Although, we do some short training. As we say at Unleash Learning, short-term professional development has its place. But the magic happens when a system is unleashed throughout the organisation and changes the culture. For the school, that’s a three-year process; for the business, it’s a three-stage process because it’s a different context. I go out and personally deliver workshops.
Host: So, let’s get a bit about your backstory. You’ve worked in the California education system. And you mentioned in our past offline conversations that out-of-field teaching was banned there. And I understand that might have been part of the No Child Left Behind policy or law. So, can you give me a bit of background on out-of-field teaching in California? Like when you were there?
William: We didn’t call it out-of-field teaching that in my experience in California, but states work differently. In California, you had to have or work towards having teachers whose degrees or backgrounds aligned with what they were teaching. I’m not an expert in this space, but there were provisions. For example, you might have somebody who owned a business and then was going to teach business studies. Still, the district had to onboard them with teaching and learning support pretty extensively over a period of time. But it was pretty rare, from my experience, that you’d have a science teacher who didn’t have a science teacher background teaching science.
In California, we have elementary schools, primary, middle schools and high schools. When you get a teaching credential, you can’t move from primary, for example, to high school; you actually have to have provisions – certification – to work at the high school level. I knew middle school teachers who needed additional qualifications to teach at my high school.
Host: When you say additional qualifications, is that, like, you’ve got to take a year off work and get those university qualifications, or you can do a unit at a time for a year or something?
William: I don’t know how it worked. It may be similar to becoming an administrator in California, you don’t just go into the administration role, you actually have to get a degree, too. So, a lot of teachers who wanted to be principals or vice principals would go to university at night over a couple of years, as they were planning for that transition. This was before online learning. That middle school teacher I mentioned who really wanted to teach high school, had to go back to school, but it wasn’t like for years. But she had to upskill to be able to do that. And then I do know districts, where they had a whole bunch of people you’d say, were out-of-field educators, but they were in that industry. So, the school districts were helping them transition. Like the mechanical engineer guy who was going to teach engineering at high school level, they would make provisions for that.
Host: The most interesting of those I hadn’t heard of before is the idea that school leaders would be out-of-field if they didn’t have that extra qualification, like the administrators.
William: Actually, you had to get an administrative credential. And I think it was a two-year degree. And so, colleagues and I went to night school for two years to study change theory, leadership, education, teaching and learning system and a little bit of the history of leadership. I think it’s a pretty rigorous process.
I don’t know what the [regulations] meant for casual teaching.
I’ve been [in Australia] for 15 years, but we call them substitute teachers in the US.
Host: So then, were you in leadership in the US in your schools?
William: I was, I would say I was in leadership from a teaching and learning perspective. My role was teaching, and I was an English teacher, and an AVID teacher, and my leadership role was for the teaching and learning perspective. So, in the summers, I was going around the US, working with thousands of educators to upskill and support their teaching and learning activities through the AVID organisation.
Host: We have an AVID in Australia – I don’t know if it’s the same thing.
William: Yes, I introduced the AVID model to Australia.
Host: Please tell, tell the listeners what it is.
William: So, AVID is a university preparatory program that takes kids from the academic middle who have no one in their family who’s gone to university. It started in San Diego. The intake could be through middle school or high school. I was an avid teacher, and I was the AVID coordinator of the school. I travelled all over the US writing AVID curriculum, and working with other teachers. When I moved to Australia, I introduced it a long time ago. And then I just assumed it would take off, which it did. So that was before I started my own business.
Host: Okay. So then somewhere in that path there, you got your PhD. How does it link to where you are today? Have you used it, and what was it on?
William: My doctoral work had a teaching-learning emphasis with literate literacy – teaching and learning how that program worked. It was a four-year process. I had a teaching credential in California, and to get a pay rise, you have to get a master’s degree as a teacher. So, most teachers will go on to get their master’s. I got mine in curriculum and assessment over three summers, which was life-changing.
Then from there, there was a doctoral program that I entered involving three years of coursework while I was teaching full-time. Then I did a year-long study focusing on gay and lesbian teachers who are out in their classrooms. So, I went around California in my car. This was before technology really took off, so it took me six months to find them. What I was looking at was the interconnection between identity and pedagogy. So, identity and pedagogical practice, which really shaped how I understood and understood teaching and learning on so many levels, inform layer upon layer about what we do today, and also the doctoral work. Us doctoral students were taking what I thought was radical life-changing courses on systems thinking and leadership and equity and inclusion and literacy and statistics. Unfortunately, we had to do that, which nearly killed me, but research methodologies were, in fact, we went to Vietnam and visited classes, classrooms all over Vietnam, and looked at schools all over Vietnam, we took a course and went around, and so it was rigorous and life-changing. And then the study. The study came about through the journey of that. And I’m also a gay man. What I found interesting was that I entered the doctoral program thinking I knew exactly what I wanted to research. But then there was this woman who told us many people of colour, women, and people who’ve experienced marginalisation who enter doctoral programs end up studying in their community. That is exactly what took place in my cohort.
Host: What was the finding? What was the bit of knowledge that you’ve contributed to PhD? Doctorate?
William: Well, there’s a couple of ways. The real nerdy part of me would say what our beliefs of teaching and learning are. A lot of our work at Unleash Learning is unpacking some of those beliefs, interrupting what makes learning stick. So, there’s one piece of that, so your pedagogical beliefs emerge from it, you know, what you believe?
So, if someone says to me from that study, why does the math teacher have to be out? It says a lot about their beliefs about teaching and learning. That’s number one. The number two is a connection between who we are and how we teach. And they said to get, there’s a connection between who for all of us, regardless if you’re gay, or lesbian, or whatever, there’s a connection.
So, for these folks I interviewed, what they told me all over the state as I travelled in my little car, interviewing them, is that their histories and identities shaped their pedagogical practices. So, for example, I remember there’s a PE teacher who told me her story of exclusion, and harassment. All students participated in learning in her classroom, which isn’t the standard. What we believe, what our values are, and our history shapes our pedagogical practice. That’s absolutely what we know about the research about that as well. So, who we are, and our life history shapes our pedagogical practice.
And also, the majority of teachers in Australia as well, here too is it’s a mostly white middle-class profession, meaning that we’re the ones who got through school are the ones who mostly did well in school. When I used to interview a teacher/educators, most had a hard time telling me about times at school that didn’t work for them. And that shapes pedagogical practice, right? So, if you can’t imagine being totally excluded, or because usually the people who don’t finish or don’t get degrees or don’t become teachers, that informs teaching practices.
Host: Wow, it makes me think how sensitive our pre-service teacher programs and how sensitive our schools are to allowing people to celebrate those differences and, and appreciate that, you know, like, we’re not all going to fit into one set of pedagogical practices, even for a particular discipline. We’re going to bring our own self in there. And you’ve got AERO, the Australian Education Research Organisation, which is cherry picking this, you know, being this broker of pedagogies and evidence and like, ‘Hey, guys, this pedagogy works. Use it‘.’.‘.
I’m assuming there’s a disconnect because of my background as Croatian/Slovenian. There was nothing in my online master’s or my years of teaching since 2011 which got me to reflect on that and how I brought that into the class, and how it might shape my teaching, or my philosophical standpoint, as a teacher.
William: I didn’t mention when you asked about my history, I taught at California State [University] San Marcos and San Diego, and then I was recruited out to Charles Sturt University, where they work with the middle school program they developed. Then I came to Macquarie University.
I read the teaching for impact statement that states/territories put out, and it’s the first time I’ve seen their stuff about who the teacher is matters, what they believe, how they understand their backgrounds, and how they understand. I mean, here’s effective teachers know themselves. And we do a lot of work about their stuff we need to know about ourselves. That’s very powerful, and that impacts our pedagogical ways if we want to make learning stick for everyone, and that’s where we come in at Unleash Learning.
Host: I think back to my own, like, my final practicum, which was like six weeks, and you walk in there, you forget everything else, you forget yourself. No one is interested in what you bring, your cultural capital, no one – kids, teachers, leaders, and we’re yet to have that flip. Like, ‘Hey, Margaret, so are you a writer, you’ve been writing for 30-plus years. If you’d like to be involved in a lunchtime writing program”, there’s none of that.
William: Well, it’s safer that way because here’s the pedagogical approach. A delivery model of education is this belief that I just fill someone up. So, we have to be very literal with the language, right? We say that a lot in Australia. Now, we say that a bit. In the States, I don’t hear it as much, but it’s there. Okay, so I’m not saying this is better than that. So, the word ‘delivery’. In fact, when it comes to school, we start working to stop using that word, because delivery means something very specific, but if you want to make learning stick for everyone, that is not what science says makes learning stick. I called the company Unleash Learning because what we’re trying to bring out of people not fill in people because, actually, this is the neuroscience you bring out the learning. So, then, who the teacher is matters, who in fact, the reader-response theory, which is one of my favourites, what it actually says about reading comprehension is, in this case, who the reader is, matters. And then there’s the text, this interaction between the reader and the text. And that is how it starts becoming stickier, and cognition happens. And that’s why if you read a book based on your history and background identities, you’re probably going to see that text through certain lens because who you are matters. And then the power of diversity and inclusion is when we start doing that together, because our minds open up to see it from multiple vantage points. But in the delivery model, I will tell you they haven’t actually interrogated and critiqued the word delivery. But I’m certainly going to look at it in a very different way.
I did an article on the Unleash Learning blog begging people to ban this word. Because, again, that’s a word that says a lot about what we do. And it’s not about being a bad word, but if they use it, it just says we have to unpack the language because it often mirrors the pedagogical approach.
Host: So, playing devil’s advocate thing you talk about, you know, this, the teacher brings so much of their identity to teaching their class. So, what happens if they just say, ‘No, I’m just here as the garden variety teacher; I’m just going to fit in and forget who I am? What does the system lose? What does the class miss out on? If that’s how they operate, they don’t bring themselves fully into the role.
William: What makes people nervous when I say these things sometimes are what it means to bring yourself fully [into teaching] … it does not mean I’m telling you everything about myself. When we work with schools, people tell us they and I used to do this in the classroom. But I ask them to tell me about their favourite teacher. And what will happen nine times out of 10, if we do, if it’s facilitated well, is people will tell me about who the teacher was, but not the content. So, what they tell me all the time is who the teacher was, they’ll talk about their enthusiasm, their love of science, their care, and their integrity. They were talking about who the teacher is, and many times that people will tell me, they can say it’s a science teacher, but they can’t really remember what happened in the class. But they remember the teacher. That’s the example of who we are matters.
One of my favourite quotes is, I think it’s from Bell Hooks that ‘education is never politically neutral’. It’s either confirming the culture or questioning the culture. So, if we’re saying that, I just go in and deliver mathematics. Well, that’s a political statement. I don’t mean it, like you vote a certain way. I’m just saying there’s no right way to do it.
But I’m just saying if you want to make learning stick for everyone, we do know the science around this stuff. So, it’s not saying we have to reveal our deepest, darkest secrets. That’s not what I’m talking about. We’re saying that even the person who says I’m just quote delivering maths probably, I don’t want to unpack this too much and get myself in trouble. But if you look at history, they might say, well, school taught me just to do these things and just do those things. The other thing to add is always remember the research about new teachers and new teachers without intervention. That’s why we’ve got a big ‘new teacher’ part of this three-year journey. Without really supporting new teachers’ success, they’ll drop out of the profession or replicate what happened to them in school, even though they have a degree telling them hopefully something a little bit more updated. So, we replicate what we saw. Yes. And as we saw, it was like, if you were othered, you probably either don’t enter the profession, or you want to do something a little bit different.
Host: Because it reminds me in science, you’re taught as a science teacher scientific conceptions, but you still carry alternative conceptions which you use in your everyday lives. Yet when you come into school, it’s an unconscious thing, you know, the ones to use. So, that sounds like what you’re saying, except it’s that teaching experience. So, it’s the student experience, which colours how you teach.
That doesn’t make us bad or good. It just says if we want to make learning stick for everyone, there are some conversations we have to have; there’s a systems approach to that. And who the teacher is matters. I could do hours about who the teacher is matters. And if anyone, whoever’s listening, we are great gifts if we unpack that gift.
Host: This is kind of going off the script a bit, as in the questions I’ve shared with you before the interview, how can out-of-field teachers feel and genuinely bring more of themselves into the class? If they’re doing casual relief and temp teaching, or as well as their permanent teachers? How can they be authentic to themselves as teachers?
William: We do all this work. And my first book, I read about this, and my second book … the greatest thing we can do is study ourselves as much as we’ve studied the profession. The more times we get congruent in our lives, the more times we face our own fears, the more times we act out of our values, the more times we know what our yeses are compared to our nos, or the more times, we’re living a life where we, you know, on our deathbed, look back and go, you know, that was Earth school, and I kicked some butt in that thing, that you showing up in a room on that journey is the greatest gift students will ever see. And you don’t even need to say a word about it.
So, live a life that you love; live a life that’s not your family’s life, not your obligations. If I don’t want to be in the classroom anymore, it’s time to go, and that’s your truth. So, if you’re living a life of congruency, it is the greatest gift, you can show students and faculty, and you know what, it’s not about being perfect, because you’re going fall, you’re going to screw up, you’re going get back up, and you’re probably going be broken open. And the people that are broken open, those that went through really dark nights of the soul, often become some of the world’s greatest teachers that show the planet some light in a time of deep darkness.
So, [teaching] is not about strategies. It’s not about I didn’t know all this or to this. It’s ‘Who are you in this?’ What is the life you’re living? Are you proud of yourself, as there are fragments that you need to get some therapy, if you need therapy, go on a retreat, find a coach, live a life, that you are so proud of that students see you and go, I don’t know who that person is. But that’s the direction I’m going.
Host: Sounds like aligning your values more seamlessly with your work and you’re going to have less stress.
William: This is a new term. There’s a book coming out next year on that one. Teachers don’t have room for more stress anyway.
Also, we’re a profession. The problem is we’re a ‘giving profession’ – what are we giving out? When you ask that question, I’m suggesting we give in. I hate to say this in some capacities, and I’ll be careful, but sometimes it’s easier to take care of everybody else and not take care of yourself.
The teaching for Impact statement talks about effective teachers believe student wellbeing and engagement are essential. So, they believe certain things, but I’m also going to say about those things, we are those things, and we’re going break open and then find out new values
Host: Yeah, that’s great. This pod is going in new directions, and that means I’m learning more about the work you do. So, tell me a little bit about some of the schools you’ve worked with. And if you can quantify the improvements, like maybe what was the best school?
On the Unleash Learning website, we’ve got a video on Copperfield College in Melbourne. We’ve been down there for four years, I think now, and the campus principal said there’s a deeper sense of belonging in Unleased Learning classrooms and increased engagement in classrooms.
As the director of Unleash Learning, one of the things that I’m most proud of is when I go to schools that are doing this work, or I can see real quickly because there’s a different energy. Here’s an example. One of the teachers she’s working on certification right now on literacy, teacher certification. But she said that her student came to me one day and said, Miss, the hour flies by here; there’s a buzz in this room. And one day, there was a young man, the campus principal, who taught a class, this young man walked in, and I think he spoke three languages. He had a very pronounced accent. So yeah, I had to listen. But again, I barely speak one language. He spoke three, and walked in. And the teacher introduced me to him, and she said, I can read the student’s name. But she asked him, what are you learning in economics? He started spouting out what he was learning. And I said, Steve, how do you know this stuff? And he said, because of what my teacher does. And so clearly, learning is sticking. And I said, why do you need to learn economics? And he said, man, you better know economics, like he knew why. And so that’s the kind of stuff I’m most proud of is where it’s sticking for students. There’s a great awakening like that he knows awakenings other places.
So, we’ve got two schools in Western Australia, and we’ve got some people working with the new teachers in New South Wales. And I personally was working all over Southern California with new teachers for years, I’d fly back.
Host: You still do?
William: Yeah. COVID stopped it, you know. But my first book went out to schools for new teachers, I think about 2000 copies went up to new teachers all over Southern California.
When you’re working with these schools and don’t coach teachers individually … it part of a system-wide kind of change?
William: Yeah. Yeah.
Host: So, while there’s high staff attrition and teacher shortages, how does the Unleash Learning approach work when there’s so many, like, you know, fuzzy edges and changes?
William: It’s really why we target schools with leaders who are looking longer term because right now, what’s happening is it’s a very reactionary time, just trying to keep up with everything and staff shortages. What we’re doing is, and what I would argue is, it’s even more important, we’re using a systems approach, rather than a strategies approach or a compliance approach. So, what we do is we help embed the Unleased Ring system into the school. So that because people would constantly come and go, hopefully, there’s not be another pandemic that we’re going to have.
But what never changes is the need to make learning stick for everyone. Everyone is the equity and inclusion piece. So, once that gets into place, and that takes time, and what it also does, the biggest compliment I ever got was from a school leader. And she said to me, William, I don’t want to be rude, but it was like the greatest compliment because this stuff is like the easiest stuff out there. Because once you get it, it is actually the first thing that brings everything together. Stress levels are dropping. Here’s this framework, she said, it’s the easiest stuff out there. It takes time to get it in place. But once you do so, then what we do is bring in systems thinking. Once the Unleash Learning system gets into place, nine times out of 10, anything that comes to the school around teaching or learning will fit into the system, not be, oh gosh, it’s something else to learn. It’s something to learn that strengthen the system.
Host: So then, I don’t know if you drill down to this detail, but when you know teachers are teaching out of field in schools, you’re working with that. Are they given extra support or information about working in this new culture? How do they become part of this system?
William: It’s a three-year journey, and the principal or leadership team will initially decide who’s part of the journey. We know how change works and how you get tipping points. So, if it’s an out-of-field teacher, as you describe them, the principal might say, hey, Margaret would be really great for this. And it’s a great way to upskill. An upsell. So, let’s call it ‘add to all the gifts you bring’. And so it just if they’re part of that journey, you don’t need everyone to create change, you need the right people.
What we do is help the leadership team really decide who are the right people for this journey. And then it might be an out-of-field teacher, it could be anybody really at that site. My concern with out-of-field is that you may not have the content knowledge, which is really important. What Unleashed Leaning provides is the system’s approach. So that’s going to help strengthen the pedagogical approach that’s designed to make learning stick for everyone.
Host: With the schools that you’ve been working with, has out-of-field teaching been something that’s been on the table to be discussed? Has it been explicit?
William: It’s not explicit; I think what starts coming up on the journey is, the way I describe it is a teacher is like a sailor, having their own classrooms. So, what comes up is who the teacher is matters. And we look at their circuits of energy. So, what that means is, what’s on their plate, really, and a lot of educators and leaders are really great people, and then they’ll say yes to everything. But you can’t sail a ship effectively if you’re going from ship to ship to ship all day long. So, part of the conversation is getting people onto their ships.
The out-of-field piece is, and I don’t know if this completely connects, is what I’ll come across as a teacher saying to me, oh, I’m teaching six different classes, and I’m teaching maths and science and English and PE. And I’m like, wow, thinking it’s impossible to be effective. You can’t see the circuits of energy that take the focus it takes to make learning stick for everyone to sail a ship effectively. You can’t jump from the maths ship to the others. So those conversations start emerging during the process.
Host: Well, there was one teacher I did quiz for this podcast – Justin Pronin from the Australian Capital Territory. He embraces whatever they throw it at him to teach in his school. And he’s kind of flipped it so that he is the learner co-learning with the students. He was teaching Italian this term knows none of it. So, he’s like, a lesson ahead. He doesn’t find it exhausting, just embraces it. It’s very unusual to hear about that kind of success, that kind of approach.
William: We do have to be careful as our profession can get undermined really quickly – our integrity about our profession is really, really important. There are many, many paths to ensure the integrity of our profession, but it does sometimes undermine things if we believe ‘Oh, anyone can teach’. I don’t think anyone can teach. I think that it’s actually a craft. There’s a science, there’s knowledge, and there’s so it’s a very complex, powerful, important field that we’ve got to uphold., I’m just saying we have to make sure we’re not undermining our work.
Host: And in my re-reading of the research, I’ve come across something that says, you’ve got to know the pedagogy, and the content before you can learn how to teach it. So, once I found out what the signature pedagogies are for subjects like maths like history, and you know, I kind of know that overall framework so I was able to stride into that class, chest puffed up. And then I realised, just because I know those overarching concepts doesn’t mean I know how to use them. I know the content. So, it’s dangerous to read more and more, because you just realise how much we don’t know.
William: And, the science piece is I asked this question in lots of workshops, and I’ll say to teachers, how many people didn’t learn the subject actually to know how to teach the subject, all the hands go up. And that’s neuroscience. So that’s actually how it works. So, these teachers with four-year degrees or whatever will say it’s not until they actually taught it that they really got it. Well, that’s the science because they’re doing all the weightlifting.
I was an English major, so I was an English teacher. I didn’t know the novels that we were reading. But I did have a linguistic background, I did have a writing background, and I did have literature background. So, I brought lots to that as I was learning and the complexity of making learning stick for everyone. It’s content knowledge plus a systems approach.
Host: Going back to your work with schools, when you aim to capacity-build schools so that learning sticks, how does an out-of-field teacher threaten or challenge that? Or doesn’t?
William: What we do, because we work with the leaders first, so the leaders take their programs before we start through the whole three-year journey. We’re working with schools that won’t move from good to great, so they’re doing really good work already. So, once the systems start getting into place, they can look at the bigger structure, and they will start raising some questions about their staff shortages, and there are people coming and going, they’ll start looking at who’s in which position. How do we do staffing here? Mrs. Smith is teaching seven different classes. Well, we want learning to stick for them, that’s not possible. Okay, how are we going to organise this? Does everyone have their own classrooms? How do we structure this? There’s a lot of great work around teacher wellbeing – who the teacher is matters, but there’s also structure in place. So, the leadership team will put this in place, and then, the out-of-field teaching will probably come into a conversation about who’s in which positions. They’ll look at the bigger structures, they’ll look at the logistics.
Host: I really love that you’re encouraging them to look at how they’re rostering, how they’re using those resources. So often, out-of-field teaching occurs where the right teachers are in the right school, but the principals, and the school leaders, just haven’t had time brain space to allocate them
to the right spots.
William: If teachers are moving from ship, to ship, to ship to ship to ship all day long, I’d be stressed out too. So, we can help with wellbeing through the structures and systems we put into place.
Host: My next question … how can school leaders manage out-of-field teaching more successfully? Do you frame out-of-field teaching as a risk management issue for schools that they’ve got to deal with?
William: So, I’ve been in Australia for almost 16 years. In San Diego County, where I was from, there was lots of discussions about, and they understood, inequality. There was constant talk about who gets resources. So, for people north of the highway, the economics there was a little bit lower. The question I’d always say then is like, what teachers went to what schools in the county and so if we want equity, who’s getting resources so are there a lot of out-of-field teachers in low-income schools. There were certain school districts that could pay teachers more because even the pay was different between districts. So, from an equity and inclusion standpoint, I’m curious who’s in what location?
Host: Well, for the reason I’ve done mostly out-of-field teaching in Australia, basically, there’s more of it happening in rural, regional, very remote schools just don’t have a critical mass of teachers around there. They do things online school, if you’re studying in a remote school can’t do economics for your leaving certificate, you can tap into an online kind of group of schools and study through there. So, you’re not getting an out-of-field teacher, you’re getting a bona fide in-field one, someone who’s been through a lot more hoops.
William: There are challenges with the distances in Australia and the, but I just think we must keep putting front and centre about equity, inclusion and resources, because often what we say to kids is just work harder. And it’s really not about just working harder. There’s a structure, right? It’s easy to work harder when someone gives you a car and puts gasoline in it. Or, they say, bicycle. Here’s a bicycle with no map. Now just work really hard.
Host: How can school leaders manage out-of-field teaching more successfully?
William: From an Unleash Learning perspective, leaders need a system and mission. Where we come in is we put the teaching and learning mission in place on the system. What happens with that systems approach is all this stuff starts coming into the conversations rather than overfill leaders’ cognitive loads. We support new teachers with these programs, it’s like one more thing they got to do. So, they’re juggling a million things. So, what we do is put a system in, a teaching learning system, where it suddenly becomes self-organising, and then their cognitive load drops. And this conversation will emerge because they’ll start looking at the structure. But what they need, I think what we all need right now, is a system of delays. Because no one can keep up with what’s happening. It’s just not possible cognitively. And also, it depends on the school’s teaching and learning mission. If the teaching and learning mission is to make learning stick for everyone, then there’s a system to use to get there. And this conversation fits really well in that system. But first, we got to get this because a lot of times I’d say, well, for what reason, are we doing this? And there might be too many reasons. But we have got to say, okay, here, their school often has a mission for the school. But that’s not the teaching and learning mission. So, once we get the teaching and learning mission place in the system, then we can look at the whole structure, because it’s like, here’s the sailboat, we now know where the shore is, even though the world keeps changing every day. And the state [education department] goes now it’s this and now it’s this and that’s it. And so now they’re super focused, there’s a system and these conversations are really important conversations that they have the cognitive space to have.
Host: I think that’s something that you’ve impressed upon me throughout this interview, the idea that teachers are overloaded this and leaders are overloaded. There’s just so much it’s a vortex. So, I wonder if we could look at the idea of out-of-field teaching as being a potential niche for education consultants such as yours to manage? Would you say in the future, given it’s so widespread?
William: The challenge for the leader is, if you look at teaching framework [syllabus] from a state level. I don’t know how people teach from these things, but there’s good stuff there. So, I think what we need to do is look more holistically rather than at bits. The problem is, it’s a bit here’s a bit here’s a bit new teachers, here’s a bit, we’ve got teacher wellbeing, here’s a bit. What we need is how to lead during disruptive times as we need to put the teaching learning mission and make it really specific, which impacts the pedagogy. And then once we’ve got that structure in place with a common language, these conversations fit into that rather than, oh my god, there’s one more thing we’ve got to do. So, I don’t think it’s a consultant bit from an undetermined perspective. We’ve got to put the ship in place and know the destination. And then, where are these pieces fit in the ship. And that’s where great leaders can do even greater work because they have it organised.
Host: So, Unleash Learning works with schools, government departments, professional development teams, and is a registered training organisation. So, I was curious if you’ve had to deal with the issue of staff working in areas where they’re not qualified, whether short or long-term?
William: We work with the early childhood sector. Sometimes, early childhood educators are put into leadership roles without the professional development they need to be effective. So, in my way, they’re like out-of-field leaders. They’re kind of set up to fail being put into positions without the support to be in those positions.
Host: What about outside of education, different departments?
William: I see presenters, I don’t like the word. I’m going to use the word trainers who are, quote, training, who don’t have an education background and are following the script because what they’re doing is delivering content. I don’t mean it disrespectfully. They don’t have a pedagogical background, so they rely on their personality, flashy stories, or hard work. What we do is put the system in place for them as well, to give them this because they’re good people doing really good work to give them this, but the business needs that the team needs to have the structure in place, the system in place to support their success. So, isn’t it all about aligning people, putting people in the right spot who are supported to do great work? Because they want to do good? These are good people.
And sometimes what happens with teaching and learning is we expect that anyone can teach. And I think they can, but can they get learning to stick for everyone?
Host: Are there any other points or comments you’d like to make?
William: What I love about our profession is that most people really want to do good work and care. What I hope my message to them is I don’t want them struggling because if they’re struggling, sometimes what happens is we tell a story about ourselves. And the story, the shadow story, would be like I’m not doing, but there’s a structure here. It’s not about you. So, if you’re having a hard time, and you start beating yourself up, and you make it mean something about you. There’s a structure here. Let’s celebrate people out there doing good work, and let’s make sure we’re supporting them. I want to make sure there’s a system and structure in place to support everyone’s success to make learning stick for everyone because that, ultimately, in this teaching space, we’re talking about kids’ lives.
Host: Well, I think the takeaway from me from our chat today is about bringing an understanding of who you are, your values, why you got into teaching and kind of questioning whether you’re teaching as you were taught. So it’s that kind of navel-gazing that I take away from today.